Philly Cheese Taco???
Just before bed I scrolled down and noticed some comments on the immigration post from Chowda... I read them, turned off my computer and then tried to go to sleep. Well... I couldn't, I felt like I needed to raise my voice and wave my arms around a little bit.
I haven't disagreed with Cheese Steak this much in years.
First of all, lets trash this bullshit of "Jobs Americans won't do." Jobs will get done, plain and simple. It's called capitalism. See what happens here is an employer makes an offer to the world "I need your skillz, I will pay you $XXX for that service." Employee then says "Yes" or "No."
Employers trade money for labor. It's a simple agreement. If you need money bad enough, you will work. If the employer needs labor enough, he pays more for it. Every time you mess with that system you get problems.
Yes there will be a hit on the economy, yes some prices will go up, yes some profits will take a hit. What will happen is a simple rebalancing of the economy. Prices will end up where they should be. Why would an employer pay an "American" (note the term "American" for later discussion) more to do a job if he can get an "Illegal" to do it for less... and without paying taxes... and health ... and retirement... and unemployment and all the other bullshit he has to pay "Americans". Basically what you have is a tariff on American labor (crap, I should write that down). As with every other Tariff, it screws things up.
Point two, I dislike Unions as much as the next guy, but I don't see where they come to play. Maybe not in the city of Brotherly love, but Unions are on the way out and it's not solely the result of illegal immigration. Labor is simply not in the control of unions in most of the country anymore. Just as illegal aliens drive the cost of labor down, Unions and other forms of organized labor drive the cost up.
Point three, despite what I said above, no sane person is talking about deporting 12 million illegal immigrants. Without cattle cars and Nazis there is no way to remove that many people. If I don't have the stomach for it, I can't see others with it. Say what you will, they are here to say. Stopping the influx of new illegals is what we need to be focusing on. Once that is taken care of we can go about finding ways to make Mexicans living in America, American. They can then slowly start otherwise contributing more fully into the American economy and society.
Four, I'm all about the veiled Dennis Leary quote, but you are way off. I say we open the doors wide for anyone who wants to get into this country legally. Here is the trick though. WE NEED DOCTORS, SCIENTISTS, ENGINEERS and the like... Not someone to cut my grass, thats what high school kids are for. You don't compete in the world market with goods anymore. The world has moved on, we need skills. There will always be unskilled people in a society, more than enough to fill any position. Skilled craftsman are always in demand though.
Fifth, borders are essential to sovereignty. You can not have a country without borders. Currently we have no southern border and no respect for the laws which enforce that border. A nation needs to be homogeneous. We don't need to look the same, we can have any color skin you want. What is necessary is that the underlying root beliefs and values are the same. You won't see it in the MSM, but I've been seeing a whole lot of Mexican Flags flying on flag poles.
In America, we fly the American Flag. We speak English (or a close approximation thereof). We consider ourselves to be Americans.
I mean seriously, look at Europe. We have been BLESSED in this country to have Europe there leading the way. Showing us what policies don't work. What happens in Europe happens to America in 5 to 10 years. I'm not talking fashion. I'm speaking of governement policies. Cheese Steak, say "Hi to France" They had a big old open door policy for low skilled immigrants with no desire to assimilate into their culture. Ask them how that's working out for em. You know, when they are not too busy putting out all their car fires. The same is happening in Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden... All over Europe. Europe is paying for ALL of it's mistakes. Why follow their models while we can still get out in time. Still change our course.
You talked about supply and demand... I think you got it a little wrong. Americans are supplying the wealth. What are we getting in return? You say a booming labor based economy. I say we are getting a population most likely to vote (or demand) more of a welfare state by adopting an entitlement mentality (look at the protests for an example of that), a population who who sends a huge portion of their American wealth out of the country (back home... note the word "home") and a population that doesn't pay into a tax or insurance system which they freely take advantage of. The world is moving into a information economy and hanging onto old models will only leave us behind.
There is a lot more to this and the American global economy, but saying things like "Jobs Americans won't do" really is crap. Our current entitlement policies, labor laws and other restrictions are what is preventing "Americans" from wanting to do crappy jobs. I bet if you got rid income taxes, welfare, and everything else that would put Americans on the same level as Mexicans you will see a hell of a lot of white boys shoveling shit to make a buck. Strap the illegals with the same liabilitys to employers and I bet you'll see a lot more white boys cutting lawns.
I do it get it Cheese Steak, you run a company and you want cheap labor. Cheap labor means you can sell your product for less (and get a bigger market share) or make more of a profit (obvious motive). However, this basically takes advantage of a system that costs every other part of the system.
Americans don't let illegal aliens go without help when they loose their hand in your meat grinder. Without putting their American born kids in school. Without them taking advantage of everything else we pay for. Simply shuffling around costs doesn't make something less expensive. I'll pay an extra 2 bucks for my tomatos if my health insurance costs less, or if I can communicate to the dry wallers that there needs to be a door where he has a wall.
Keeping the Southwest as part of America would be nice too. Radio stations and news papers declaring Los Angles belongs to Mexico is a trend that won't easily stop.
Hopefully I can sleep now. (ed. I did).
Otter
I haven't disagreed with Cheese Steak this much in years.
First of all, lets trash this bullshit of "Jobs Americans won't do." Jobs will get done, plain and simple. It's called capitalism. See what happens here is an employer makes an offer to the world "I need your skillz, I will pay you $XXX for that service." Employee then says "Yes" or "No."
Employers trade money for labor. It's a simple agreement. If you need money bad enough, you will work. If the employer needs labor enough, he pays more for it. Every time you mess with that system you get problems.
Yes there will be a hit on the economy, yes some prices will go up, yes some profits will take a hit. What will happen is a simple rebalancing of the economy. Prices will end up where they should be. Why would an employer pay an "American" (note the term "American" for later discussion) more to do a job if he can get an "Illegal" to do it for less... and without paying taxes... and health ... and retirement... and unemployment and all the other bullshit he has to pay "Americans". Basically what you have is a tariff on American labor (crap, I should write that down). As with every other Tariff, it screws things up.
Point two, I dislike Unions as much as the next guy, but I don't see where they come to play. Maybe not in the city of Brotherly love, but Unions are on the way out and it's not solely the result of illegal immigration. Labor is simply not in the control of unions in most of the country anymore. Just as illegal aliens drive the cost of labor down, Unions and other forms of organized labor drive the cost up.
Point three, despite what I said above, no sane person is talking about deporting 12 million illegal immigrants. Without cattle cars and Nazis there is no way to remove that many people. If I don't have the stomach for it, I can't see others with it. Say what you will, they are here to say. Stopping the influx of new illegals is what we need to be focusing on. Once that is taken care of we can go about finding ways to make Mexicans living in America, American. They can then slowly start otherwise contributing more fully into the American economy and society.
Four, I'm all about the veiled Dennis Leary quote, but you are way off. I say we open the doors wide for anyone who wants to get into this country legally. Here is the trick though. WE NEED DOCTORS, SCIENTISTS, ENGINEERS and the like... Not someone to cut my grass, thats what high school kids are for. You don't compete in the world market with goods anymore. The world has moved on, we need skills. There will always be unskilled people in a society, more than enough to fill any position. Skilled craftsman are always in demand though.
Fifth, borders are essential to sovereignty. You can not have a country without borders. Currently we have no southern border and no respect for the laws which enforce that border. A nation needs to be homogeneous. We don't need to look the same, we can have any color skin you want. What is necessary is that the underlying root beliefs and values are the same. You won't see it in the MSM, but I've been seeing a whole lot of Mexican Flags flying on flag poles.
In America, we fly the American Flag. We speak English (or a close approximation thereof). We consider ourselves to be Americans.
I mean seriously, look at Europe. We have been BLESSED in this country to have Europe there leading the way. Showing us what policies don't work. What happens in Europe happens to America in 5 to 10 years. I'm not talking fashion. I'm speaking of governement policies. Cheese Steak, say "Hi to France" They had a big old open door policy for low skilled immigrants with no desire to assimilate into their culture. Ask them how that's working out for em. You know, when they are not too busy putting out all their car fires. The same is happening in Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden... All over Europe. Europe is paying for ALL of it's mistakes. Why follow their models while we can still get out in time. Still change our course.
You talked about supply and demand... I think you got it a little wrong. Americans are supplying the wealth. What are we getting in return? You say a booming labor based economy. I say we are getting a population most likely to vote (or demand) more of a welfare state by adopting an entitlement mentality (look at the protests for an example of that), a population who who sends a huge portion of their American wealth out of the country (back home... note the word "home") and a population that doesn't pay into a tax or insurance system which they freely take advantage of. The world is moving into a information economy and hanging onto old models will only leave us behind.
There is a lot more to this and the American global economy, but saying things like "Jobs Americans won't do" really is crap. Our current entitlement policies, labor laws and other restrictions are what is preventing "Americans" from wanting to do crappy jobs. I bet if you got rid income taxes, welfare, and everything else that would put Americans on the same level as Mexicans you will see a hell of a lot of white boys shoveling shit to make a buck. Strap the illegals with the same liabilitys to employers and I bet you'll see a lot more white boys cutting lawns.
I do it get it Cheese Steak, you run a company and you want cheap labor. Cheap labor means you can sell your product for less (and get a bigger market share) or make more of a profit (obvious motive). However, this basically takes advantage of a system that costs every other part of the system.
Americans don't let illegal aliens go without help when they loose their hand in your meat grinder. Without putting their American born kids in school. Without them taking advantage of everything else we pay for. Simply shuffling around costs doesn't make something less expensive. I'll pay an extra 2 bucks for my tomatos if my health insurance costs less, or if I can communicate to the dry wallers that there needs to be a door where he has a wall.
Keeping the Southwest as part of America would be nice too. Radio stations and news papers declaring Los Angles belongs to Mexico is a trend that won't easily stop.
Hopefully I can sleep now. (ed. I did).
Otter
posted by The Management at 10:43 PM
11 Comments:
Wow Otter. Now I see why you are in management. This POV on this whole thing is one that makes sense to me. And I'm not just saying that because the Zooms think you are cute.
I've kept my opinions on this matter silent because I believe I'm in no position to comment out loud. I simply don't have the knowledge, experience or facts to do so.
YOU, however, seem to have a well thought out, logical argument to this. In fact, I've heard so many debates on this...I feel like printing out your post here and throwing it down amongst the debators.
I hope you got some sleep.
FYI Everyone...
I made some corrections and additions to the post. Some were grammer and spelling, others helped readability. I'm not saying this is worthy to print out, but I fixed a couple of the obvious holes :)
Thanks Zooom. As you might have noticed reading the blog lately, I haven't really been in the mood to "get all political" lately. Once I care about stuff I get all worked up. Sometimes it's nice just to stop worrying about the world.
Immigration is a big deal, and worthy of debate, but really I was more suprised at the Philly Cheese Steak Blogger's comments as I though we shared a lot of the same ideas.
The problem with this debate on a national level is that there is a lot at stake and a lot of emotions involved.
Thanks for taking the time to read my midnight rant, and thanks for your kind words.
Otter
The crazy thing about immigration is that it is a testament to everything great about this nation. It's amazing to me how many people bash America, yet look at the numbers of people wanting to get within our borders.
Otter,
I will respond within the text of your blog. Your words are in quotes. See below.
--TPCSB
OTTER: "Philly Cheese Taco???"
--What a great title, I thought you were giving us new marketing ideas. I will experiment with a taco and get back to you.
OTTER: "Just before bed I scrolled down and noticed some comments on the immigration post from Chowda... I read them, turned off my computer and then tried to go to sleep. Well... I couldn't, I felt like I needed to raise my voice and wave my arms around a little bit."
---I am sorry to hear that, sleep is very important.
OTTER: "I haven't disagreed with Cheese Steak this much in years."
---Not since you showed me the light in my Sophmore Year of College.
OTTER: "First of all, lets trash this bullshit of "Jobs Americans won't do." Jobs will get done, plain and simple. It's called capitalism. See what happens here is an employer makes an offer to the world "I need your skillz, I will pay you $XXX for that service." Employee then says "Yes" or "No.""
---With a heavy heart I am sorry to report to you that this has not been our expeierence in the company. We go through 4 or 5 individuals a week. I shit you not. Even sader is that our best workers, don't speak english. So under your defenition, they are not American, yet they are taking advantage of the oppertunity to start out from nothing, whereas some "American born" have been told all their lives they are under privleged and can't get ahead, and so they rather walk off the job after an hour. BTW, Internet geniuses will only tell you so much, you are invited anytime for a tour for another side of that story. You know where to find me.
OTTER: "Employers trade money for labor. It's a simple agreement. If you need money bad enough, you will work. If the employer needs labor enough, he pays more for it. Every time you mess with that system you get problems. Yes there will be a hit on the economy, yes some prices will go up, yes some profits will take a hit. What will happen is a simple rebalancing of the economy. Prices will end up where they should be. Why would an employer pay an "American" (note the term "American" for later discussion) more to do a job if he can get an "Illegal" to do it for less... and without paying taxes... and health ... and retirement... and unemployment and all the other bullshit he has to pay "Americans". Basically what you have is a tariff on American labor (crap, I should write that down). As with every other Tariff, it screws things up."
---Your bring up a negative stero type of business owners seeking illgeals to "save money." In this day of age it is virtualy impossible to run an "under the table business." Who wants that headache? Who wants the liability? Besides even if you do have "illgeals" working in your company your still taking out for taxes and workman's comp, no one will hire unless they have an SS number, I guess that is how some get caught.
OTTERS: "Point two, I dislike Unions as much as the next guy, but I don't see where they come to play. Maybe not in the city of Brotherly love, but Unions are on the way out and it's not solely the result of illegal immigration. Labor is simply not in the control of unions in most of the country anymore. Just as illegal aliens drive the cost of labor down, Unions and other forms of organized labor drive the cost up."
---I agree with costs argument, I believe I stated that. However, the unions are alive and well in the cities, espeical one's with ports, and in lobbying government, and therefore there will always be policies that are unfair to business owners. The current immigration bills before Congress are unfair to business owners because yet again it will increase regulations, liabilities, as if they don't have enough. Think about it in terms of your civil liberties, Otter. You are a passionate writter about the Government infringing on your rights. The same methodology can be applied to regulating businesses, whether it be taxes, labor, whatever, this immigration debate is another attack on the business commuinty. Honestly, I read in the Wall Street Journal that one of the bills would require business owners to contact the department of homeland security to verify if someone is a citizen before they hire them. Can you imagine what a debacle that would be? Months before anyone can start. That would affect us all, and once again the government would be forcing business owners to cheat.
OTTER: "Point three, despite what I said above, no sane person is talking about deporting 12 million illegal immigrants. Without cattle cars and Nazis there is no way to remove that many people. If I don't have the stomach for it, I can't see others with it. Say what you will, they are here to say. Stopping the influx of new illegals is what we need to be focusing on. Once that is taken care of we can go about finding ways to make Mexicans living in America, American. They can then slowly start otherwise contributing more fully into the American economy and society.
---Yes, no one is talking about deporting 12 million illegals, but if these bills pass, the government is going after employers. One bill even has jail time for employers. What happens in the case that an employer is given a fake S.S. card? How much time, money will it take to defend oneself? Once again, government will have one more issue for going after businesses, infringing on our liberities and properties.
OTTER: Four, I'm all about the veiled Dennis Leary quote, but you are way off. I say we open the doors wide for anyone who wants to get into this country legally. Here is the trick though. WE NEED DOCTORS, SCIENTISTS, ENGINEERS and the like... Not someone to cut my grass, thats what high school kids are for. You don't compete in the world market with goods anymore. The world has moved on, we need skills. There will always be unskilled people in a society, more than enough to fill any position. Skilled craftsman are always in demand though.
----With respect dear friend, you sound like an idealist. If it were that simple then why is it not occuring?
OTTER: Fifth, borders are essential to sovereignty. You can not have a country without borders. Currently we have no southern border and no respect for the laws which enforce that border. A nation needs to be homogeneous. We don't need to look the same, we can have any color skin you want. What is necessary is that the underlying root beliefs and values are the same. You won't see it in the MSM, but I've been seeing a whole lot of Mexican Flags flying on flag poles.
---What is MSM?
Otter: In America, we fly the American Flag. We speak English (or a close approximation thereof). We consider ourselves to be Americans.
OTTER: I mean seriously, look at Europe. We have been BLESSED in this country to have Europe there leading the way. Showing us what policies don't work. What happens in Europe happens to America in 5 to 10 years. I'm not talking fashion. I'm speaking of governement policies. Cheese Steak, say "Hi to France" They had a big old open door policy for low skilled immigrants with no desire to assimilate into their culture. Ask them how that's working out for em. You know, when they are not too busy putting out all their car fires. The same is happening in Germany, the Netherlands, Sweden... All over Europe. Europe is paying for ALL of it's mistakes. Why follow their models while we can still get out in time. Still change our course.
---Low skilled workers didn't want to assimilate to French culture because they are FRENCH! Get it? Do you know of any other culture less embracing of others then the FRENCH? Americans are different. Most immigrants I know assimilate, embrace, the American culture, because they want to be Americans. Do you remember your joke/post from the other day..."Fuck you towel Head." There was some truth to that.
OTTER: You talked about supply and demand... I think you got it a little wrong. Americans are supplying the wealth. What are we getting in return? You say a booming labor based economy. I say we are getting a population most likely to vote (or demand) more of a welfare state by adopting an entitlement mentality (look at the protests for an example of that), a population who who sends a huge portion of their American wealth out of the country (back home... note the word "home") and a population that doesn't pay into a tax or insurance system which they freely take advantage of. The world is moving into a information economy and hanging onto old models will only leave us behind.
OTTER: There is a lot more to this and the American global economy, but saying things like "Jobs Americans won't do" really is crap. Our current entitlement policies, labor laws and other restrictions are what is preventing "Americans" from wanting to do crappy jobs. I bet if you got rid income taxes, welfare, and everything else that would put Americans on the same level as Mexicans you will see a hell of a lot of white boys shoveling shit to make a buck. Strap the illegals with the same liabilitys to employers and I bet you'll see a lot more white boys cutting lawns.
OTTER: I do it get it Cheese Steak, you run a company and you want cheap labor. Cheap labor means you can sell your product for less (and get a bigger market share) or make more of a profit (obvious motive). However, this basically takes advantage of a system that costs every other part of the system.
--No need to bring the company I work for into this. We are legitmate, as is our workers. I am against all these bills because once again more burden on our businesses and more regulations. I agree about the voting patterns, but what do you think exporting them will do? What do you think a wall will do? Push them all that way. If you have a guess worker program you have a shot at instiling the old entrepreneur values into them.
OTTER: Americans don't let illegal aliens go without help when they loose their hand in your meat grinder. Without putting their American born kids in school. Without them taking advantage of everything else we pay for. Simply shuffling around costs doesn't make something less expensive. I'll pay an extra 2 bucks for my tomatos if my health insurance costs less, or if I can communicate to the dry wallers that there needs to be a door where he has a wall. Keeping the Southwest as part of America would be nice too. Radio stations and news papers declaring Los Angles belongs to Mexico is a trend that won't easily stop.
---Ahh, the old blame it on the immigrants arguement. Even when it was the Bears, I thought it was the immigrants. I can't speak for what is going on in the Southwest. Mexico can have California as far as I am concerned, it is going to be in the ocean one day anyway.
OTTER: Hopefully I can sleep now. (ed. I did).
---Sweet dreams Otter
Cheese…
Awesome… I wanted to start out by saying that there is nothing you could ever type.. and I mean ever, that would ever make me say something that I would purposely say something you thought was mean to you… Brothers… Spirited debate is a real sign of friends. That being said, I bought a 30 pack of Ice House and started making it less than the 30 it was in remembrance of debates long past. I love you man.
If you can give me a call.. That would be cool.. I wanted to talk to you but only had your office number..
Anyway…
To the Blog comments I see what you are saying, and I now don’t think we are too far off… but there are some points.
Last point I wanna make before the debate, you know you have the ability to make these “posts” and if you want you know you can put anything you want at the topic level. I.E. you can make anything you want a new post.
Moving on…
I too, will quote.
-- == is PCSB…
"Philly Cheese Taco???"
--What a great title, I thought you were giving us new marketing ideas. I will experiment with a taco and get back to you.
No shit, I thought of that too. Philly Steak… fried onions (maybe peppers) on a soft tortilla shell…. No freaking “wiz” but rather melted Pepper Jack. Maybe salsa… I think you can sell this ‘cause I would buy one or seven…. Sub Steak or Chicken Steak… even more ideas… Southwest cooking “Americanized” This WILL be a big deal in 10 years… Iss make some money from it. Someone needs to.
---Not since you showed me the light in my Sophmore Year of College.
Cheese… you know that was just ‘cause you didn’t have all the data.. I’m not saying that’s the case now… You’re the one I call now for matters like this… You do know I think you are smarter than I’ll ever be. No joke. That’s why I always wonder when we disagree.
---With a heavy heart I am sorry to report to you that this has not been our expeierence in the company. We go through 4 or 5 individuals a week. I shit you not. Even sader is that our best workers, don't speak english. So under your defenition, they are not American, yet they are taking advantage of the oppertunity to start out from nothing, whereas some "American born" have been told all their lives they are under privleged and can't get ahead, and so they rather walk off the job after an hour. BTW, Internet geniuses will only tell you so much, you are invited anytime for a tour for another side of that story. You know where to find me.
Here is where we start… First of all I respect that your have real life experiences that back up your philosophy. It’s as it should be. However, I take issue at the situation in which you describe. First of all you point out that “American” people you employ are... to use the vernacular… worthless… While non English speakers last longer and do a better job.
I’m not going to argue that because I believe that to be the case.
You are right. A lot of people have been raised in this country to think they are above doing certain jobs that NEED to be done. That they are better than others. That is a serious problem that is only made worse by our current welfare state . I’m not saying that American born people are any better or worse. And I’m not talking about immigrants which is something I will address in a few minutes. You seem to equate non-“Americans” as the solution. I wanna point out that you have experience, but that meat processing is not the end all in this. I’ve worked construction with a lot of people (over half) that didn’t speak English. I’m not devaluing them. Work is work and you are right, they work more than the average bear.
I don’t have a problem with people taking advantage of opportunity. I don’t have problems with some people more work than others.
My problem is those taking advantage of opportunity at the detriment of citizens. We might have made that situation , but it still isn’t fair and needs to be addressed.
English doesn’t make an American…looking back at my post, I don’t believe I say that. The only time I speak of the English language is as a point o reference to how integrated a person is.
What I am saying is I agree with you. A bunch of people have been told they are better than they are. That’s one of the reason s Non-American born people are doing jobs that are under valued. Abhor inflation but there are things that are worse.
---Your bring up a negative stero type of business owners seeking illgeals to "save money." In this day of age it is virtualy impossible to run an "under the table business." Who wants that headache? Who wants the liability? Besides even if you do have "illgeals" working in your company your still taking out for taxes and workman's comp, no one will hire unless they have an SS number, I guess that is how some get caught.
I apologize.. I’ve entertained a certain amount of hyperbole… Only a lesser amount of immigrants are employed as illegal aliens. As an honest businessman I know.. I really know… that you wouldn’t do such. As you say, it’s not worth it. At the same time I know at least 5 south west farmers that only hire illegal… The system is corrupt.
Not ignoring your points I want to ask if even legal people new to this country are not being mislead. From my experience, people who do everything “right” are not selling services at a discount. Yeah it’s part of the system but…
---I agree with costs argument, I believe I stated that. However, the unions are alive and well in the cities, especial one's with ports, and in lobbying government, and therefore there will always be policies that are unfair to business owners. The current immigration bills before Congress are unfair to business owners because yet again it will increase regulations, liabilities, as if they don't have enough. Think about it in terms of your civil liberties, Otter. You are a passionate writer about the Government infringing on your rights. The same methodology can be applied to regulating businesses, whether it be taxes, labor, whatever, this immigration debate is another attack on the business community. Honestly, I read in the Wall Street Journal that one of the bills would require business owners to contact the department of homeland security to verify if someone is a citizen before they hire them. Can you imagine what a debacle that would be? Months before anyone can start. That would affect us all, and once again the government would be forcing business owners to cheat.
Unions are too big a topic for this level of conversation, though I believe it belongs there. We will talk later. So we can keep the faith, I wanna want to say all unions are EVIL
---Yes, no one is talking about deporting 12 million illegals, but if these bills pass, the government is going after employers. One bill even has jail time for employers. What happens in the case that an employer is given a fake S.S. card? How much time, money will it take to defend oneself? Once again, government will have one more issue for going after businesses, infringing on our liberities and properties.
You have a serious point. I entered into this argument with only general ideas as t how immigration should take place in this country,
I know nothing about these current bills and how they effect business. My discussions here and in the past post are only a direct result of my thoughts on what I see society is doing, Gibson.. Onions are good. Isss, I don’t wanna see any national ID.
Cheese Steak.. you know deep down (not so deep) I am a libertarian… Do what you want as long as it doesn’t hurt or limit me.
----With respect dear friend, you sound like an idealist. If it were that simple then why is it not occuring?
An idealist. What else should there be. For real. Anyone can live in the now. I want more. I will have more. Don’t use that word as an insult. I seee the problems. I want to fix them.
I will make this place a better world !
1st answer is that it is.. Ask India about Dr. Drain. Ask Druz about his co workers. It’s happening now and that is not a problem its a great benefit to this country. It ain’t cool at that at the same time.. a large segment of the population is being pansies and not living free, but they want to. Everyone FREE wants to be free. Socialism is a product of the enslaved… but that hasn’t been asked,
Idealist.. Isss… Idealist is not a bad word.
---What is MSM?
Main Stream Media = MSM
---Low skilled workers didn't want to assimilate to French culture because they are FRENCH! Get it? Do you know of any other culture less embracing of others then the FRENCH? Americans are different. Most immigrants I know assimilate, embrace, the American culture, because they want to be Americans. Do you remember your joke/post from the other day..."Fuck you towel Head." There was some truth to that.
Believe you me, I want tot make this a French thing, but it isn’t The French are only one of most of European countries that are failing as such. Ignoring Europe is a failing we and we can not afford to follow. Seriously find a European nation that is doing well. These are nations that embrace socialism, multiculturalism and liberalism. We need to not Doctor Who 2005 to see the future. Watch what I available to us. America handles other nations well, I love seeing the best from everywhere here… but things are changing.. seriously.. look at Europe’s Econ. Before thou reply.
OTTER: You talked about supply and demand... I think you got it a little wrong. Americans are supplying the wealth. What are we getting in return? You say a booming labor based economy. I say we are getting a population most likely to vote (or demand) more of a welfare state by adopting an entitlement mentality (look at the protests for an example of that), a population who who sends a huge portion of their American wealth out of the country (back home... note the word "home") and a population that doesn't pay into a tax or insurance system which they freely take advantage of. The world is moving into a information economy and hanging onto old models will only leave us behind.
OTTER: There is a lot more to this and the American global economy, but saying things like "Jobs Americans won't do" really is crap. Our current entitlement policies, labor laws and other restrictions are what is preventing "Americans" from wanting to do crappy jobs. I bet if you got rid income taxes, welfare, and everything else that would put Americans on the same level as Mexicans you will see a hell of a lot of white boys shoveling shit to make a buck. Strap the illegals with the same liabilities to employers and I bet you'll see a lot more white boys cutting lawns.
OTTER: I do it get it Cheese Steak, you run a company and you want cheap labor. Cheap labor means you can sell your product for less (and get a bigger market share) or make more of a profit (obvious motive). However, this basically takes advantage of a system that costs every other part of the system.
I am sorry I brought in your company. It was wrong. I know you ar3 doing nothing wrong. I was pointing out illegal aliens. However all my arguments are still valid.
--No need to bring the company I work for into this. We are legitimate, as is our workers. I am against all these bills because once again more burden on our businesses and more regulations. I agree about the voting patterns, but what do you think exporting them will do? What do you think a wall will do? Push them all that way. If you have a guess worker programs you have a shot at installing the old entrepreneur values into them.
Iss you can’t pull this on me. I love the “bear” usage, but for real… I know you are a second gen guy, but I am a “half-half” third guy.
I KNOW IMMIGRANTS ARE THIS COUNTRY.
The trick is that we can’t any longer just say come on board at will and if at will with some type of regulation…
Me done….
First let me start by saying That Otter's post is one of his best written posts since an e - mail regarding his alegiance to the Dark Side of the force. Second anonomyous' comment is an excelent reply. This blog is and excelent sounding board.
With that being said. I side with both of you. I am a manager in an industry which releys on mexican immigrants. It is very difficult to obtain any other labors (black, white, ect) to fill these possitions. From a legitimate bussiness prospective Philly Cheese Steak don't be nieve that most of the immigrants you imploy are legal. Just because they gave you 2 forms of ID for their I-9 dosen't mean that they are on the up and up. There was a "round up" (for lack of better term) in philly a month or two ago and several workers from other bussinesses in my industry were picked up on the street and taken in to cusudity. To me that "stop and search" practice is more disturbing then a lot of this other crap (But thats a whole civil liberities post). All and all I'm realising that I'm just rehashing the previous arguments and they have all ready been made in very logical and thought out mannor. (thanks Zoooom)
Thank you for very stimulating posts but could the next one be a picture of Jewel Satie?
Otter,
I was not offended, and I am sorry if my reply seemed that way. You are a gentlemen debater, and a iwtty writer. And for the record I disagree with you, you are much smarter than I and in college you served as an academic mentor.
Your site is the most fun I have had on the internet. Thanks for doing this.
---TPCSB
PS
I lost the info on how to post, I am not too tech savy.
Man... I was too drunk to be posting.. I can't even read what I was writing.
Umm...
Otter
I'm going to cry. I love you guys.
I was kidding. I don't have tear ducts.
Couple more points - some of this may overlap with Otter -
1. Illegal immigrants are driving the market labor rates down for skilled and unskilled labor. That's a fact. The reason for this is simple, if someone will do it for less, why hire someone for more. Fox News was reporting something to the degree that the rate at which skilled and unskilled labor rates went up over the last 10 years was literaly in the single percentages. I'm not a union buff, but being a union buff is not wanting illegals circumventing legal means to get jobs that Americans would want if they were paid true market rates, maybe I'll change my views.
2. Businesses are and should be held liable for "knowingly" employing illegal immigrants. It is your responsibility to make verify that individual is eligible to work in the U.S. because you are willing and probably need to employ them. Newt Gingrich said the other day that if you were to increase fines, and I mean seriously increase them on businesses who employee illegals, no one would even want to cross the border because there would be no where to work. It's not a bad point, and like Otter said - if my Big Mac costs 50 cents more, then I'm all for it.
3. Illegal immigrants are using false documentation - I'm not going to sidestep that issue. This scares me to no end because I was a victim of identify theft not too long ago, and if illegals keep crossing our borders and create more demand for falsified records, then the crooks are going to get smarter and we as American citizens are going to see major influxes of identity theft.
4. For the love of God - please tell me Congress is not moving toward a National ID card. That would be a terrible move for this country, but it does look like that issue is just around the corner.
That's it for now...until I get my next cup of coffee. Peace guys.
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